Reselling Vote

Hey everyone,

We have decided to do a whole-server vote to see what you all thought about whether we should allow reselling - especially because it will directly affect the shopping experience.

The economy has noticeably been a change in the wilder economy over the past few seasons, where items are available for far too cheap, meaning much less needs to be earned, and everyone gets bored faster. After seeing a lot of your concerns about this we had a big discussion among the staff and below are the main ideas about why or why we wouldn't allow reselling - as an attempt to make things fairer and even.

Please read a bit before voting, and feel free to discuss this over discord or in-game over the next week to see what other people think!

Reasons reselling should be allowed:

1. It encourages items to be sold for what they are worth/the effort put in to get them. This is because people change it wouldn't just be about having the cheapest price (as people resell), but if someone buys and resells from you, you want a fair profit either way. The item is still bought but mostly adjusted to being fairer for the seller (if they choose to do so).

2. Less work for Staff. Checking for reselling takes time and is often quite hard. Therefore, by allowing it, that time can be spent on other priorities.

3. It doesn’t guarantee instant monopolies or reselling. Reselling is still a risk - buying out all of/a portion of someone's stock doesn't guarantee it will resell for higher - and the price you choose to put on it makes more of a difference. This is especially true for items that are farmable, as more get plugged into the shop system frequently.

4. It may help to raise prices. This is because items that are cheaper get bought out faster (as there is more motivation to do so - if people hope to resell). But it doesn't necessarily mean prices rise to something far too unfair.

Reasons reselling shouldn’t be allowed:

1. People may get upset. If people spend time and effort grinding/building farms etc. to get items to sell - to have them be bought very fast (if that happens) can feel upsetting as your sellers are being limited. However, the opposite point can also be made - that it's fine because the items are sold anyway.

2. It doesn’t necessarily guarantee fixing anything. We are suggesting this in hopes of benefiting the economy, but of course, there's not a guarantee it will do so. That being said, we do think it's worth trying.

3. Is there a problem with very low prices? Some people may think that very low prices are fine, and there is no need to make prices that are fairer/harder to earn/buy. In truth, many items such as beacons are only such a low price because someone intentionally 'broke' the market by flooding it with them. Also, we know that many players have expressed feelings that with items being so cheap, it means they don't need to earn anything and get bored faster.

4. It won’t work much for fast renewable items. This is because as they are constantly being pumped into the system, it usually means that raising the price through reselling is made harder as more people can control the price.

Overall, we held a vote among staff and believe that the positives of reselling outweigh the negatives, especially because people still have their items sold, but in general the market is made fairer. We would like to give you all the same opportunity to vote since it directly affects you, and in a week's time the votes will be counted and a decision will be made whether reselling will be allowed again or not.

! - Vote is closing Thursday 6th May 8pm EST.

Link to Vote here: https://forms.gle/1aUxaqvgVnWtp69i7

Many thanks!

Not coincidentally I was just reading one of the seminal papers on in-game economies.

The In-Game Economics of Ultima Online

While the details of the in-game economy described are not the same as we see in Wildercraft, plenty of the economics-informed discussion of player behavior is very relevant. I personally don't think that people get bored just because they can buy cheap gear. Grinding isn't inherently fun, and the dopamine hit from getting your reward is short-lived.

ETA: My biggest argument against banning reselling is that people do not respect rules that they can't make sense of and that aren't evenly enforced. The reselling ban looks like one of those from where I sit. Furthermore, I use gold to "make change" so that I can sell things that people agree are worth less than a diamond. Why shouldn't I be able to buy a stack of gold blocks from someone else's shop for this purpose? I'm not trying to "earn" gold, and I try to maintain zero inflow or outflow of gold from my shop. But I need to keep the gold chest stocked the way a retail shop has penny rolls in the cash register.

I agree with Tiger's referenced papers. I doubt people get board just because the market is so cheap.

Regardless, I would have sided with less regulation on the market. I anticipate you'll see very little change in the market overall. I do think you'll feel the reduction in administrative overhead.

I've always thought Wildercraft shops should be open to buy and sell whatever they want regardless of how it's obtained. A laissez-faire market self regulates better in general, and none of us that I'm aware of are economists with enough data about what drives player decisions to assume we know better.

Let them eat cake.

Let me hit you with an example of what I have done in the past with an economy that allows reselling of items. These days I'm more of a casual player so I wont be going doing any of this, but I'm sure there are those that would.

This was a towny server so the setup was a bit different but it's not too far off from an SMP so the ideas are still relevant. I ran a town ([G]enMay)) with a small group of friends. We were always in a solid competition for who had the largest town but we found a way to keep ours up at the top. We created a mall at our town spawn. This was many versions ago so the number of possible blocks was less than that of 1.16 but there were still plenty to go around. We stocked everything we could think of in this mall. Some items may have too many variants to stock all the individual variants but we had enough variety that a player could gather the resources to craft anything in the game. None of us were super hot on grinding for all of these resources so once we had a few hot items start making money, I started just going out and buying resources to resell at my town shop at a small markup. I wasn't price gouging or anything but I was trying to make a profit. Certain items I wouldn't mark up at all because of how easy they were to obtain. What started happening was that players started to learn that if you needed something you could almost always find it at my shop. No need to use a search feature and port around to different shops to see if they had what you needed, I'll just go to the Genmay spawn and they would have it for a mostly reasonable price. An extra benefit of this was that people wanted to live close to where they could get the resources. We had decent builders which helped as well but thats off topic. After a while we had so many regulars that players that didn't even live in our town would advertise for us when new players would ask for items in chat. There became a point where we had more money than we knew what to do with so we opened up a chest shop section of the mall just for buying items off of other players so we didn't have to go out buying our restock as often. We were regularly asked to empty our buy chests because they were completely full. We remained at the top of the town list for the majority of the wipe, were typically used as the standard for how much something was worth, and were the wealthiest players on the server. 

I know there is a limit to the number of shop chests you can have at spawn shops but i don't know about the survival worlds. If there is, I know it's much higher than at spawn. Enough so that 2-3 friends could get together and create a large enough mall to pull off something similar. Now is something like this bad? I think it depends on the player base. I enjoy playing on this server but its a fairly low pop server compared to a lot of others out there including the towny server this took place on (200-300 regular players). I'm not sure if something like that would be feasible on a lower pop server but i would imagine some version of it would be. Now it did cause a fairly large wealth gap but I don't necessarily think it was bad. We were not the only ones making money but we were definitely at the top. But for the majority of the players it worked out just fine with little complaint. People were making money and I was making money off them, albeit slightly more. Also controlling the market like that doesn't allow you to price gouge. If people start having to pay too much, they will start looking elsewhere and others will move in on that territory. Driving people to other shops is exactly what you don't want to happen because those couple of other things then need, well they are already at this other shop, may as well buy them here. Business starts dropping and everyone starts farming like crazy to take advantage of it. Think about Wall-Mart, the name of the game is volume, not valuables.

It’s possible this could add a new dynamic to the game that wasn't there previously. If holding a players attention longer is the goal, maybe adding some competitiveness into the economy is worth a shot.

Not everyone has the time or will power to pull something like that off but it's an example of what could happen. Make of it what you will but I think it would be interesting to see how it plays out.

A in-depth description of how reselling will most likely inflate market prices.

**A simple explanation of reselling benefits**

This is how reselling could inflate the market in several scenarios

**Scenario #1**

Lets say you have Player A selling beacons for 1 diamond. Now you have Player B come along and he buys out all of Player A's stock and sells it for 10 diamonds. Now Player A will feel inclined to raise his prices in the fear that his stock will be bought out again.

**Scenario #2**

Player A sees the announcement that reselling has been allowed. He immediately rushes to raise prices in the fear that Player B will come along and buy it all then sell for more.

**Scenario #3**

Or Player B buys out all of Player A stock and then sells it for more and since nobody else is buying from Player A only Player B the market price is now set at Player B's price.

**Scenario #4**

Or if Player A sees that all his stock is being bought out (If he is a good salesman) he will raise his prices to match this surge in sales.

What is the problem folks are trying to fix by allowing reselling?  Is it that prices are too low for some items?  That people don't have to work hard enough (whatever that means) to earn items?

Allowing straight reselling of items will raise prices on some things, but it certainly doesn't create any incentive to earn or work for anything. All it does is create a way for players with a ton of diamonds to make more without doing anything. You are literally going to give them permission to take from other players for their own profit. 

And lets be clear that a certain kind of reselling is already alowed. As I understand it, players are allowed to buy items and repackage them for resale.  If I buy a shulker full of blackstone, and then turn around and sell that same Blackstone as individual stacks I am not violating the rule.

What you are talking about here is the rule that prevents a player from buying up, say, all of the Dungeon Keys and then reselling them for more. How does that help the economy? All that does is create monopolies and makes money for a few players.

If the goal is to fix the economy, there are other issues more important to look at.

1) Diamonds as currency - That diamonds are really the only currency we have is an issue. Most things slowly get sold for just 1 Diamond.  We need another currency.  All items should be sold for increments of that currency.  That currency can then be exchanged for other resources in the marketplace.

2) General list of items - The changes to Search$ have been great. If we can get enchanted books there, as well as a way to list enchanted armor, weapons and tools, and that will go a long way to helping folks.

3) Auction House - How about a way to list special items, or bulk items (something other than a shulker full) and let demand decide how much it's worth.

4) Put All Shopping Online - I know this is unpopular and that people enjoy building their shops, but if you removed the need for shops and just let everyone list items in one searchable database, you'd open up more options for buyers and sellers.  

Allowing direct reselling of one seller's items by another seller is a bad idea. You can already see that happening to some extent with the buying and reselling of netherite ingots without any value being added to the ingots. Only the price goes up and makes it harder for new players to buy it.  I like to charge iron for a lot of items in my store and I get upset when someone buys out my items and directly resells them for like 5 times what I charged without doing anything to add value to the items. In my opinion I think the only reselling that should be allowed is when items are added to a kit or some other value is added to the items like additional enchants. One other case I can think of is when you have had and used an item for some time and then get a better "Wilder" item and want to sell your old one that you bought some time ago. Not only is that difficult to track but it also keeps items in circulation especially if there is a limited supply.

I would like to see some fractional currency so that the entire marketplace does not end up being one diamond for everything. Maybe a Wilder buck that is fixed in value at 10 WB for one diamond and the server could have a bank at spawn where people could buy WB's for diamonds or turn in WB's at the bank for diamonds.  That would add a lot to the capability of shops to spread prices out more according to the value of the items. Even better add a Wilder dime and a Wilder penny too.  This would also give people more things to do at spawn. Imagine the economic teaching points you could introduce with a variable rate WB based on the supply of WB in the economy. LOL

I also want to add that I don't believe people get bored because things get too cheap. In my case I get bored when just starting out and struggling to get decent armor and tools but keep dying in the process. That is the worst part of this game in my opinion. It becomes much better once I can survive a multi-mob attack while I'm trying to build something. I see so many people come on as ferals and play for a while and then never come back.   I think that if they could do some basic mining and get protected enough then they would have a better time and play longer.  I left a long trail of servers behind that I stuggled with and just kept seeing the high prices for everything and realized that I could not afford to buy anything for a very long time. That made me bored and I quit those servers after a few days.

What I think of reselling:

1) Reselling is good but also bad and here is why I think so. 

Reselling can boost the economy and make prices go up but maybe stay the same too. Like for the wildercoins or the Dungeon keys.

People will buy them even if they are low or high. For example. (A as in the first player and B as the second and C as for the third player)

A walks over to B's shop chest and gets all of the items from the chest because its cheap. They have looked everywhere for the best deal.

But This was the only one that was the cheapest where they have low diamonds. B's shop is booming and don't want to lose sales. But needs to go and get more items. But where the world is starting to run out, their product is coming to an end. Alright after A bought from their store and put it up in their own store. With a higher price from before (Even though this is not fair.) C walks around the corner and buys them out. Now this C player is a new player on wildercraft. They have no idea how to set up a shop and keep it stalked like the skilled players around them. But they need diamonds to pay for gear. (This is where I think Reselling is alright but not a reason to give players a right to over due their prices from other players they have bought from before.) 

C is happy

B is not Happy

A is not Happy. 

WHY???!!!

Because, B and A has to go get more stock or wait until the other restocks first. Then C as everything in the end. And it's just a circle of buying from one person to another. That is not how Buying and Selling works. It does in Auctions. But not in this case. 

I vote No for Reselling in Minecraft because of a circle in shops. A neverending circle. Where everyone would get bored and it would not work. Although, making stuff into new items to resell I aprove of. Because, It's a new product. Not only is it new. You would need some items to remake an item. Not only are you remaking an item to sell. But you are not selling the same product you bought before. 

But here is option two 

2) Why I think Reselling is good?

If a player is new to minecraft and needs gear fast!

What are they going to do?

They will grab diamonds fast and see where they can go for shops. If there is diamond Items for 1-3 diamonds that is okay enchanted and they buy it. Now this player is getting good around Wildercraft. They don't want to throw away the first gear they bought. But they want to start making diamonds too. So they resell it to the next player that is new and the circle goes on. Yes Players are getting diamonds back but it all depends on what that price is. If they bought it for 1-3 diamonds and they think its worth more then that because it saved their life. They might put it for 5 diamonds. And the player that they bought it comes back and sees that. They will raise their price to keep up, like with Netherite right now. I think in a way that this would be good. So there is not a lot of extra gear floating around and lagging the server up. For myself I own two dubble chests full of armor I bought in the past to help my friends. But now they don't need it. I hate to throw it away. Why not put it in a shop for 1 diamond? This is where I would see reselling would help a lot. But also hurt a lot in a way too.

Not only will there be less mining, (Where minecraft...you Mine...) Will get shorter But also Diamonds would get less use. We would have to start using netherite as the money. Because it's harder to get now with the new updates. 

Diamonds you get way more then you can Netherite. This is also why I think Netherite should be the new money going around. If you start to allow reselling. It is only fair. And it will get more people out and use the nether more than the overworld where they would mostly spend their time. 

Also you guys might want to set up a birthday reward when someones birthday comes up. Like when you vote. That would be cool and you could give them a cake of what color they like. (Just a thought out there since you guys are doing a whole forum over reselling) 

BUT I WOULD STILL SAY NO TO RESELLING UNLESS EVERYONE STARTS PAYING IN NETHERITE! THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND FOR READING UP TO THIS POINT <3

Market efficiency refers to how well current prices reflect all available, relevant information about the actual value of the underlying assets.

Wildercraft is not an efficient market. If you want information on the best possible price for an item, you need to visit every store that sells it. This is work. Some people think that this work is fun. I do, but then I love eBay shopping. Also, I have time. Furthermore, market efficiency applies when price is the primary or sole concern.

What else are people thinking about when they go shopping? As described in the Ultima Online paper, fun is at least as big a concern as price. Visiting shops is fun. You get to look at the decor and experience new corners of the shop area. Not to mention, you can walk around at night without getting mugged by creepers. If two shops have different prices, and the higher priced shop is owned by a friend of yours, which one do you patronize?

There are ways to make Wildercraft an efficient market. For instance, item search could spit out the list of items in order of price. The main problem with this is that if one shop takes diamonds and the other takes gold or emeralds or wildercoins, and there is no mechanism to establish a conversion rate for these "currencies," then there is no way to tell which is the better price. The other main problem as I see, after playing WC for a bit, it is that an efficient market could be counterproductive. The search for the lowest price would direct everyone to the same shop, which would sell out quickly. There would be no browsing. The effect that allowing reselling would have on prices is small compared to making an effient market.

Furthermore, a public MC server economy is going to look way, way different than a "real" economy. There is no room to create brand new goods. You can only make what already exists in MC. You can come up with more efficient ways to create some things, though. For instance, when I started selling glowstone, there was so much demand that I caved and zombified my clerics so I could grind out 4x as much. I had a friend build me a pumpkin farm so I could grind more emeralds (and I had to buy some of the redstone components from shops). But that's the limit of it. A lack of new products and production methods puts a floor under prices. I'm going to keep selling half a stack of glowstone for a diamond. If someone else wants to under-sell me, they can go ahead. WC's appetite for glowstone is big enough for multiple sellers. I'm not going to stop having fun or quit WC if people patronize someone else's shop for glowstone. The person with the lower price will sell out, and everyone else will have to go somewhere else or grind their own.

Will people drop their prices because they don't want to lose sales? I don't think so. I can't even tell if someone went to my shop but decided to buy elsewhere because lower price. Why do I need sales? It's fun, sure. I get a nice dopamine hit from checking /shoplog and seeing someone's been by. I enjoy pm'ing them and asking if they got all they needed. I really do like seeing people who just died on elm go to my shop and buy the tools and weapons I sell for 1d because I got good deals from my villagers. I helped them get back on their feet after they lost all of their good stuff. But someone selling the same item for less will not force me to lower prices.

Inflation is a feature of all economies. The primary effect of inflation is to make money in the bank worth less as the interest rates on deposits fail to keep up with inflation. But in WC you don't earn interest on diamonds in your echest, and that bank balance will become zero anyway when the season ticks over. In the real world, monetary policy primarily designed to rein in inflation causes a lot of damage as austerity eats away at the social safety net. WC will not have that problem. But I've played way too many persistant multiplayer games where the devs decided that since everyone figured out how to reduce the amount of grinding to get the same benefits, the amount of grinding should be increased programmatically. I quit those games so I have no idea how they're doing.

ETA: Apparently I was misinformed. Pigs do not drop leather. My bad.

In Wildercraft, prices for everything have been completely depressed because some players set up sugar cane and pig farms, grind out vast quanties of books, swap them for enchanted books from zombified villagers for 1 emerald, and sell them for one diamond. As a side-effect, these same players give away pork. The effect is that nobody can sell an enchantment book for more than 1d. I don't see anyone saying that prices for enchantment books are too low. Nobody talks about banning pig or sugar cane farms or zombifying villagers or selling enchantment books for 1d. Interestingly, I still see stacks of pork chops for sale for 1d in shops. I don't know if anyone buys them, but I suspect that they do because of market inefficiency; shoppers only know they can get all the pork they want for free if they know the right place to go, and that is only apparent if they go to the right shop to buy books.

If low prices are the reason why people quit WC, then the solutions are obvious. Ban farms and remove the villager zombification mechanism. I'll have to quadruple the price on my glowstone but, presumably, people will still buy it.